My Facebook Debate with A Right Winger

Not too long ago, Armadillo Joe gave us a post about his Facebook debate with a Texas conservative, the place where he once called home. Now I too have fallen into the trap of debating someone on Facebook with a "different take" on the politics of the day. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but a complete fantasy world can be lethal.

It all started with a Facebook friend, who I'll refer to as "Karen," because her name is Karen, adding this comment as her Facebook status:

"Ok - so I'm hangin with the tea party crowd and they're listening to some annoying radio show MCed by an equally annoying person called Mark Levin. Time to turn the shuffle on HIGH. With all that's going on in the world today - the last thing I can deal with is someone with the voice of gloom and doom."

To which someone I'll refer to as "John," because his name is John, replied:

"Well I would love to be there! I would say I am more a Reagen [sic] conservative! As long as we have small gov less taxes and big defense I am good to go!!"

Well, you know me. I couldn't just let that go. So I commented:

"John, you do know that Reagan blew the national debt out of the water to $3 trillion at the time, more than all presidents before him combined, don't you? I know I'm opening up a can of worms."

John: "And now Obama has increased the debt to more then all presidents combined and that's four more presidents then when Reagen [sic] was including Ronald. Plus he has made our country week [sic] by his apolgy [sic] tour. And let's not forget how he insults our allies. Plus I never heard a president trash talk american people like he does! He controls the.[sic] Highest office and acts like a school kid!"

The gloves are off. It's on, brohim!

Continue reading "My Facebook Debate with a Right Winger."

John: "Oh I forgot to mention the non tax paying corrupt group of Chicago politicians mixed in some radical thugs you have the makings of amazing dictatorship! Congrats!"

Yes, some good ol' 2008 Sarah Palin "pallin' around with terrorists" talking points. But it gets better.

John: "I live on [sic] California come here and see how his politics and views are working where [sic] a great model plus where [sic] bankrupt! Oh by the way I want to thankyou [sic] for picking up our tab ahead of time!"

Carl: "Uh, no. Debt was 12 Trillion when he got there. Now it's 13 trillion because if the stimulus package hadn't been enacted, we'd be seeing a lot more than 9.7 percent unemployment. have you really forgotten the last eight years?

Lower taxes? Yes, I love that $300 billion of the Recovery Act was tax cuts. I love that 95% of Americans got tax cuts under Obama.

Made our country weak? Please show me how. America is now much more respected than when Bush was in office - look at any poll.

Apology tour? Stop watching Fox News. Maybe if you listened to what the President was saying instead of what Rush Limbaugh told you he as saying, you'd get a better idea. And enough with the bowing talking point when Bush held hands with the Saudi Arabian King Abdullah.

Please give me examples of trash talking Americans. Any legitimate link to a quote will do.

Acts like a school kid? What did he do? Say, "Bring him on?" Say, "Dead of Alive?" Play cowboy and clear brush? Choke on a pretzel?

...Are we still friends?"

Carl: "His politics in California? Uh, the problem with California is the referendum votes. Everyone can vote for less taxes every election until it comes time to pay for everything. Last I checked you had a Republican Governor."

John: "There we go blame Bush but we forget about the Democractic controlled congress who was there. Lets not forget Dodd and Barney who pushed with threathing [sic] law suits about discrimination to give loans out to people who couldn't afford them in the first place that caused this whole problem! 9.7 unemployement!!! And in the last two months 900 hundreds [sic] thousand more unemployement claims! Your stimulas [sic] in action great job! How about we get the other 43 percent of the country to pay taxes before we raise them! 500 more of the richest people (which is the highest at one time) in the country has giving up there [sic] American rights to go to tax havens like the Bahammas [sic] ( which I don't believe in) now we loose [sic] there [sic] tax paying dollars!!! Once again good job at least you have nice ripe tomatoes in the White house Garden! I will pay 20 dollars for one throw of those tomatoes at Nancy Pelosi the evil demon herself!! Maybe we could pay back debt that way!! Oh yeah how is Guantanamo bay going any closed signs yet on the windows?"

At this point I'll say that "John" and I attended the same grade school and I'm beginning to wonder if he slept through eight years of English class. But I digress.

John: "His poltics [sic] yes!!! Nancy and Harry as well!! Barbara Boxer face describes the poor shape where [sic] in its falling into the ocean!!!!"

Excellent. Blame President Obama's last 15 months for the financial debacle California has been in for years because he belongs to the Democratic party. And of course, it's Nancy Pelosi's and Barbara Boxer's fault, because they control the state's purse strings and are in charge of California's budget, right? And let's be a little misogynistic while we're at it. ... Moving on.

Carl: "Wow, John, you are one angry dude. Do you really think the deficit and the debt skyrocketed in the last 2 years Bush was in office after the Democrats won Congress back? Republicans had complete control of the White House and Congress for his first six years. Where was the fiscal discipline then? Why is everyone freaking out about it now?

Was it when they passed a $1.3 TRILLION tax cut for upper income earners? Was it when they pushed through a $40 Billion Medicare Part D program without paying for it? You can't just think this all happened in the last 15 months.

Unemployment - 700,000 job losses a month even before the new administration took over. Was that supposed to turn on a dime in the first month? Or, was it going to take a little while to turn it around. Which it has by the way. Take a look at this graph:

See the red bars? Bush time. Blue bars? Obama time. See how the job losses decrease over the last year, especially starting in March 2009 (Recovery Act passes - stimulus, baby). And as far as extending unemployment benefits - yes benefits, not entitlements because we pay into them when we work - in my opinion, I think that if we spend $12 billion a month in Iraq alone, we can extend a hand to those that have lost their jobs during this tough recession for a little longer until the job growth gets better. Employment is the last thing to bounce back with a recession this deep.

Speaking of bouncing back, the GDP has increased the last two quarters in 2009, 2.2% and 5.7% respectively. And yes, Democrats controlled the White House and Congress during that time."

Carl: "And I don't understand the cognitive dissonance between wanting lower taxes and then complaining about 43% not paying taxes. Do you know why? Obama tax cuts and tax credits. Also, the number is 47% and it's still a ruse. They pay taxes."

"The 47 percent number is not wrong. The stimulus programs of the last two years — the first one signed by President George W. Bush, the second and larger one by President Obama — have increased the number of households that receive enough of a tax credit to wipe out their federal income tax liability.

But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too.

Even if the discussion is restricted to federal taxes (for which the statistics are better), a vast majority of households end up paying federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data suggests that, at most, about 10 percent of all households pay no net federal taxes. The number 10 is obviously a lot smaller than 47.

The reason is that poor families generally pay more in payroll taxes than they receive through benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit. It’s not just poor families for whom the payroll tax is a big deal, either. About three-quarters of all American households pay more in payroll taxes, which go toward Medicare and Social Security, than in income taxes.

Focusing on the statistical middle class — the middle 20 percent of households, as ranked by income — underlines this point. Households in this group made $35,400 to $52,100 in 2006, the last year for which the Congressional Budget Office has released data. That would describe a household with one full-time worker earning about $17 to $25 an hour. Such hourly pay is typical for firefighters, preschool teachers, computer support specialists, farmers, members of the clergy, mail carriers, secretaries and truck drivers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Taking into account both taxes and tax credits, the average household in this group paid a total income tax rate of just 3 percent. A good number of people, in fact, paid no net income taxes. They are among the alleged free riders..."

"Read the article for the continuing explanation."

John: "I am angry that had to let go of 10 employees so it makes me have to work harder for less result and more to come by the way!!! The illegal aliens coming in and where [sic] paying for all there [sic] bills! When we speak up where [sic] called racists!! We Americans now according to the joke Napolitano has Americans as the biggest threat to Terrorists of our country! Yet we bow down to Muslims nations not to piss them off!! He is weak! Wait till [sic] Isreal makes there move witch will happen since no one esle [sic] has the balls to stick up to Iran and see what Obama does then!! Don't worry one day we will look back at Obama and be grateful that he was useless just like JIMMY!!!!!!!!!!!"

Should I tell John, that "where" is not a substitute for "we're"? And we wonder why so many Tea Party signs are misspelled.

John: "Carl, all the [surname redacted] Boys are tough,angry,passionate guys who are always looking for a fight . But Hope all is well anyway."

"Always looking for a fight." Aw, but he still wishes this dirty, fucking, socialist hippy well. That's awfully white of him. But I'm not done. Not after the Napolitano reference.

Carl: "Hutaree Militia, nutjobs killing abortion doctors, Tea Party people showing up with guns at rallies, guys flying their $500K planes into IRS offices... sounds like the report was right. There is a right wing extremist faction that is dangerous. And by the way, you do know that the report regarding right wing extremists was requested by the previous administration, don't you?"

"The Obama administration in January issued a warning about left-wing extremists. Both reports were initiated during the administration of President George W. Bush."

"Illegal aliens? Really? I didn't know you were in the business of picking lettuce or washing dishes. But I'm guessing if we found a way to put these people on a path to citizenship and have them pay taxes, you'd have a problem with that too.

Remind me again what Muslim nations we're bowing down to? Saudi Arabia? No, that was someone else. Jordan? No... Egypt? Kuwait? No, they're all allies.

Last I checked, we escalated to 60,000 troops in Afghanistan and sending drones into Pakistan to take out terrorist training bases. Yeah, he's really weak.

Anyway, I know we're at odds here and probably not going to agree on anything except that we both love our country. Good talking to you."

...What? I had to end with a nicety since he did wish me well.

John: "It is good to see someone watches mnbc and kieth [sic] oberman or should I say the obama network! We have the right to carry guns. We need to protect ourselves now more then ever! And by the way nice beating they put on two tea partiers today broke the girls  [sic] leg! Continue your support of the new future dictators. I better be careful big brother is reading everything we say! This administration doesn't believe in freedom of speech let alone the constitution!"

...Sigh...

Carl: "John, get a grip. What the hell are you talking about? You keep coming up with these typical right wing, tea party talking points with no facts to back them up. I've given you link after link backing up any statistics I site.

Don't worry, no one's gonna take away your guns. I hope you were this angry when the Patriot Act was signed, taking away the right to habeas corpus, and before you say it was meant for foreigners, all they had to do was declare you an enemy combatant and rendition your ass to a secret prison in a different country. Big brother? Were you upset when Big Brother was listening in on illegal wiretaps? Dictatorship indeed. And you think THIS administration is subverting the Constitution?

And where does this MSNBC thing come from? I purposely didn't site anything from them because I knew this would most likely be the reaction, but you bring it up anyway. Yes, MSNBC is the Obama network just like CNN was the Clinton News Network in the 90s, right? And if you'd ever watch once in a while, you'd know that they criticize President Obama as well. You know, just like Fox criticized President Bush. HA!

And speaking of criticism, what's the deal with characterizing the criticism of the last president during a time of war as treasonous because it would "embolden the enemy", but criticizing this president during a time of war is patriotic?

And please tell me when this administration has prevented anyone from exerting their 1st Amendment rights. Hundreds of tea party protests all over the country yesterday - how was their free speech stifled? Unlike protests during the Bush years that were set in "free speech zones" usually miles away from the event.

Or better yet, people just arrested en masse for nonviolent protest (see 2004 NYC Republican Convention).

Yet this administration doesn't believe in the Constitution... right."

John: "No facts! I guess the woman and man on the floor on the news was faking there [sic]  attack in front of the crowd and she broke her own leg! I guess the police officer lied to everyone about the attack. Oh yeah that is right like the Mass police there [sic] all racists and liars! Meanwhile the drunk disrespectful Professor to get away with disrespecting the law because he is the President [sic] friend! And the President gets to call foul without any evidence and the cops are guilty But a beer is supposed to make it all go away! Not even an American beer!! You talk about talking points everything you say comes write [sic] off the Ed show, Obermen [sic], Maddow and the rest of the corrupt nbc with the illegal trading that goes directly to the White house. Cap and trade will make G E billions !! And the right wing tea party is now being flooded by independents and democrats! Why are all the democrat Senators and Congressman retiring and dropping like flies? Because they sold out there [sic] people they know we know it and in November you will know it!!! There [sic] done! Your [sic] going to loose [sic] the house and the Senate and will be a one term President! And the guy who crashed into the IRS was a democrat!! Being so close to the Mexican border all the illegal non documented workers and some who don't even work here just sneak across our borders just to use our hospitals and we can't do anything about it they then cross over and who picks up the tab! But God forbid a hard working tax paying American misses one payment!!! Anyway your [sic] right we both love our country! Just to let you know I do believe in many non conservative policies Like Woman rights gay rights and others! I said way in the early part of this thread I just want less taxes big defense and small Government!! Anyway good talking to you."

He keeps saying, "Good talking to you" but I don' think he means it.  Could it be he's tired of the debate in which he provides no hard evidence to back up his claims?

Carl: "Hadn't heard about the attack, probably because it wasn't politically motivated according to Fox News.

But if course, those who'd like to make it political claim it's because "they were wearing Sarah Palin pins" just like the mentally fractured girl that scratched a backward "B" into her face and claimed she was attacked by an Obama supporter.

Everything that I've mentioned above is part of actual stories, in the paper, local reports, etc. Just because it's covered on MSNBC doesn't make them lies. But whatever, you're going to believe what you want to believe.

And no, the Tea Party is not 'flooded by Democrats.' Only 5% are registered Democrats, while 54% are Republican."

That's where it ended. And that's where I'll leave it... unless he responds again.  Oh, and Karen, chimed in at the very end After all, it is her Facebook page.

Karen: "what drives me crazy is when people say Obama HATES this country and wants to destroy it. Really, where is he going to go live with his family when that happens? Iran? Further, Michelle HATES this country? Really ? her Investment Banker turned Basketball coach brother is gonna really miss her - cuz he isn't going anywhere. Such bullshit. You know who hated this country? JACKIE-O and she ran to Greece. Said awful things about the USA - because she suffered the trauma of her husband being killed right next to her. And African Americans suffered the trauma of servitude and prejudice - she is allowed to have her own perception of how this country treated African Americans prior to Obama being elected and that was all she was trying to say - from HER personal perspective. But it's been TWISTED and just completely taken out of context."

Thanks, Karen.